I was reading back in this post and saw where some of you have made your own blends by using Watkins flavorings like vanilla extract and spices such as cinnamon and nutmeg. I would be very interested to know what tobaccos work well with this and how much of each flavoring to use compared to tobacco. I really like vanilla as a flavoring and find that most tobaccos don't have quite enough vanilla flavoring. Thanks for the help with this!
Try some Sutliff Vanilla Custard....very, very Vanilla. Are Watkins flavorings used to blend tobacco? I am of the opinion that you are not supposed to add food grade spices such as cinnamon, nutmeg, etc. I remember doing some research on the net and i kept running into this recommendation. Now, it could be the big blending houses don't want us screwing around and taking business away? Just for safety sake, do the research. Based on what I remember reading the flavors that are used commercially are not the same as food grade? Let me know what you find out.
Well this sort of brings up a question I've had in my head for a while. Let me see if I can ask it in a way that makes sense.
An aromatic tobacco has two sources of flavor...the tobaccos and the added flavorings/casings. We obviously taste the tobacco immediately from the lit portion. But where in a cross section of a lit bowl do we obtain the added flavor? Is it right from the flame or do we derive most of the taste from the heated and steamed tobacco just below the flame? (And if so, is that why so many tobaccos lose their flavor toward the end of the bowl?)
The reason this discussion brings that up in my mind is that while I might love the taste and aroma of cocoa, for example, I don't think I'd find burning cocoa very palatable. Or a burning egg custard pie. So I'm wondering if the commercially added flavors might differ from what's on the shelf at the grocery store due to their ability to convey flavor through heating but not burning. I.e., grabbing some pure cinnamon off the shelf might only let you know what burnt cinnamon tastes like.
Well hell. That doesn't read very well, but maybe the drift got across. And maybe @Leonard could, without spilling any trade secrets, let us know something?
@pwkarch Those are good points. I had just read it in a post from way back in this discussion. I'll be trying the Sutliff Vanilla Custard. Sounds like a good one to add to some of my favorite blends to vanilla it up a little.
I use Watkin food grade flavoring all the time when mixing up one of my Frankenstein blends. I had some success with my "Root Beer Float" blend when using a combination of Root Beer, Vanilla, and Caramel Watkins flavors. Also pleased with the way my Dreamsickle" blend turned out by mixing their Orange and Vanilla flavorings. You just need to be careful not to over do things otherwise it can lead to a goopy mess. Which is something I tend to do. Then it requires considerable drying time before jarring it up for use.
Casing- Casings are flavorings, sometimes using an alcohol base, that are added early in the processing. Casings are primarily used to add flavor to a blend.
Top Dressing- Top Dressings are added toward the end of processing, and their main purpose is to enhance room note, or aroma.
<<Flavoring tobacco is a polarizing subject, to say the least. Nothing will stir up snide remarks more than to bring up the subject of aromatics at a gathering of pipesters. But flavorings are much more common than many people think, and they serve a vital purpose. So let’s look at how flavors are used, how they’re added and some discussion of how they impact a blend.
It almost seems to be a badge of honor to claim not to smoke flavored blends at all; sort of like saying that one doesn’t watch TV. The truth of the matter is that very few tobaccos have no flavoring at all. Each variety of tobacco has its’ negative properties, and the right flavoring can mitigate those, to some degree. A good example is the use of Burley. This tobacco can be somewhat sour, and the amount varies depending upon the strain, where it’s grown and other factors. Also, Burley can produce a more alkaline smoke, which can lead to tongue bite. The judicious use of a sweetener will serve the purpose of addressing both problems. In this case, something like licorice or molasses will do the job.
At this point, let’s look at the two types of flavorings- casings and top dressings. Casings are applied at the earlier stages, and are often steamed into the leaf. The steam helps to open the pores and carry the added flavor into the tobacco. Virginias and Burleys are almost universally cased. Because of the process used, casings are usually water-based. After the tobacco is cased, the tobacco is dried, often by putting the leaf on a conveyor which passes through a heated chamber, reducing the overall moisture content of the tobacco to a more manageable level. The flavor of the blend is more affected by the casing than the top dressing because it penetrates the leaf.
Once the mixture is dried sufficiently, top dressings are often added. This is especially true if an aromatic quality is desired. The choice of top dressings is dictated by the desired aroma. That part of the process is obvious, but how to achieve it is a bit more esoteric. To get a cherry aroma, use a cherry dressing. Seems pretty simple, doesn’t it? But when making the choice, the natural aroma of the leaf, plus whatever the casing adds has to be taken into consideration. As an example, Virginias often exhibit a hay-like aroma. If that isn’t taken into account, the end product might wind up smelling far different than was hoped for. So, oftentimes, it may take a number of different formulations before the aroma is acceptable.
Often, an additional element needs to be added to the basic flavor to achieve the desired result. When I was working on a chocolate aromatic, I found that, as in baking, a chocolate scent can’t be properly done without some vanilla.
Top dressings usually have an alcohol base, and may contain another "carrier", used to carry the flavor to the tobacco. In the case of "over-the-counter" blends, propylene glycol may be used as the carrier, as it also acts as a humectant to keep the tobacco moist during the, sometimes, long stretches of time that it sits on a shelf. The reason for using an alcohol-based flavor is to avoid having to use heat to re-dry the leaf a second time. By using this type of dressing, the flavor element can be applied, and the moisture will naturally “flash” off in about 24 hours leaving the tobacco at a more normal humidity level.
That brings us to another topic- the difference between taste and flavor. Taste comes from the sensations received by the taste buds in reaction to whatever comes in contact with them, and are generally broken down into salty, sweet, sour, bitter and umami. But taste, in and of itself, is a fairly muted sense. When it’s combined with the sense of smell (aroma), it becomes what we call flavor. To understand this, just think about what food tastes like when you have a head cold. That’s why aroma is an important part of pipe tobacco.
To see the effect, let’s look at a tobacco like Lane’s 1-Q. It’s amazingly popular, and has a very pleasant aroma, but the flavor isn’t overly sweet and is fairly mellow because the basic taste of the tobaccos is mild, plus, the aroma isn’t too pronounced. Indeed, it would be difficult for most people to identify the flavoring used by the taste, but can definitely detect vanilla in the aroma. Contrast that to Cornell & Diehl’s Autumn Evening. The maple/vanilla flavors are very compatible with the base red Virginia tobacco flavor, and the aroma is so noticeable, that this is one of the rare aromatics in which the added flavor is readily noticeable to the taste.
To move in a different direction, Virginias, with their natural sugar content, can make the smoker often think that they’ve been topped, even when no dressing has been applied. This is especially true in well-aged tins, which become noticeably sweeter. I smoked a ten year-old tin of McClelland’s Christmas Cheer that had become so sweet that the flavor reminded me of English toffee rather than tobacco.
The last point regards heavily topped blends that have a strong aroma, but a very light flavor. This is a common topic among people who are disappointed with an aromatic that fills the room with a singular scent, but doesn’t appear to translate to taste. Our olfactory sense quickly becomes accustomed to aromas (why do guests smell your dog when you don’t?), but our taste takes much longer to tail off. So, a blend will have a definite hint of flavor at first, but it fades fairly soon.
That makes people wonder why a flavored cigar will have a very noticeable flavor that lasts through the entire smoke, when the same isn’t true of a pipe tobacco. The reason is simple- in a flavored cigar, the dressing is applied to the wrapper leaf, so one’s tongue is in direct contact with the flavoring agent the entire time, but the taste buds never come in direct contact with the leaf with a pipe.>>
Definitely going to be trying some Frankenstein blends of my own. Sounds like a lot of fun. @ghostsofpompeii any pointers on how much to use in the mixing of stuff. Hoping to cut down on the amount of tobacco I totally screw up lol.
Regarding casing vs. flavoring, not much I can add to to Motie's info. One, simple way to think of it, is that casing (which comes before flavoring) is mostly about conditioning the tobacco and helping to preserve moisture after it's packaged. A casing formula is typically going to contain some form of food-grade humectant (glycol, corn syrup, etc.) as well as some form of sweetener (sugar, cocoa, licorice). You'd be unlikely to taste these sugars in any overt way.
From a step-by-step process, most factories will moisten the dry leaf (via steam), then case the tobacco (heat is involved here as well), then dry, cut and potentially dry again.
Top flavor (vanilla, cherry, etc.) is typically added in the very last step.
Thank you @Leonard. This has been a challenge to understand as newer convert to pipes from cigars. Between @motie2 and you it is much more understandable.
@Wolf41035 - Are you talking to me? Oh! Jolly Old St. Nicholas? I heard it was coming out in late October and immediately asked my local B&M if they could order me a couple of tins. I had my first tin on hand before Thanksgiving but waited until after I saw Santa Claus at the end of the Macy's Thanksgiving parade to open it.
After smoking that first tin, I came to the conclusion that this is a terrible blend that none of you should every put into a pipe and smoke. I am always ready to take the risk to save others so if you have any Jolly Old St. Nicholas, ship it to me immediately and I will dispose of it by burning it in a device specifically crafted for burning. You don't even have to pay me for this service. Just pay the shipping cost.
Seriously, that last paragraph was a joke. C&D Jolly Old St. Nicholas is one of the better Christmas Blends ever made in my opinion. I know a lot of pipe smokers who swear McClelland's Christmas Cheer was their "go-to" Christmas Blend, but Christmas Cheer was a straight Virginia blend. I am not on straight Virginias anyway and definitely can't understand how burning grass/hay relates to Christmas.
I've always preferred aromatic Christmas Blend and Jolly Old St. Nick is one that isn't overly goopy, it isn't overly sweet, it burns well out of the tin (for me anyway) and it doesn't bite. Since my other favorite Christmas or Holiday blends are made by companies like Rattray's, Peterson, Kohlhase & Kopp that were not released in the U.S. this year and apparently will not be available in the future, I bought a total of 5 tins of Jolly Old St. Nicholas for future enjoyment.
God bless @pappyjoe for turning many of on to JOStN. It's a fantastic VaPer/Aromatic hybrid that , I think, both English and aromatic smokers will enjoy!!!!
I have 2/3 of my JOSN tin left... I'll be breaking it out, along with Barb. Plant. For special occasions. As already stated, thanks @PappyJoe for turning us on to this unique blend...
@KA9FFJ - I keep seeing the JOSN abbreviation and thinking back to the days when the Coast and Navy had a journalist rating. An E-3 going to journalist school or working on-the-job as a journalist was designated as a JOSN.
So, I'm watching Bradley's latest pipe tobacco review (Savinelli's "Giubileo d'Oro"), over at StuffandThings on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4xvwgdU10w and it occurs to me that I've forgotten the difference between casing and top dressing. I went into my hard drive and found this document by Russ Ouellette:
<<Flavoring tobacco is a polarizing subject, to say the least. Nothing will stir up snide remarks more than to bring up the subject of aromatics at a gathering of pipesters. But flavorings are much more common than many people think, and they serve a vital purpose. So let’s look at how flavors are used, how they’re added and some discussion of how they impact a blend.
It almost seems to be a badge of honor to claim not to smoke flavored blends at all; sort of like saying that one doesn’t watch TV. The truth of the matter is that very few tobaccos have no flavoring at all. Each variety of tobacco has its’ negative properties, and the right flavoring can mitigate those, to some degree. A good example is the use of Burley. This tobacco can be somewhat sour, and the amount varies depending upon the strain, where it’s grown and other factors. Also, Burley can produce a more alkaline smoke, which can lead to tongue bite. The judicious use of a sweetener will serve the purpose of addressing both problems. In this case, something like licorice or molasses will do the job.
At this point, let’s look at the two types of flavorings - casings and top dressings. Casings are applied at the earlier stages, and are often steamed into the leaf. The steam helps to open the pores and carry the added flavor into the tobacco. Virginias and Burleys are almost universally cased. Because of the process used, casings are usually water-based. After the tobacco is cased, the tobacco is dried, often by putting the leaf on a conveyor which passes through a heated chamber, reducing the overall moisture content of the tobacco to a more manageable level. The flavor of the blend is more affected by the casing than the top dressing because it penetrates the leaf.
Once the mixture is dried sufficiently, top dressings are often added. This is especially true if an aromatic quality is desired. The choice of top dressings is dictated by the desired aroma. That part of the process is obvious, but how to achieve it is a bit more esoteric. To get a cherry aroma, use a cherry dressing. Seems pretty simple, doesn’t it? But when making the choice, the natural aroma of the leaf, plus whatever the casing adds has to be taken into consideration. As an example, Virginias often exhibit a hay-like aroma. If that isn’t taken into account, the end product might wind up smelling far different than was hoped for. So, oftentimes, it may take a number of different formulations before the aroma is acceptable.
Often, an additional element needs to be added to the basic flavor to achieve the desired result. When I was working on a chocolate aromatic, I found that, as in baking, a chocolate scent can’t be properly done without some vanilla.
Top dressings usually have an alcohol base, and may contain another "carrier", used to carry the flavor to the tobacco. In the case of "over-the-counter" blends, propylene glycol may be used as the carrier, as it also acts as a humectant to keep the tobacco moist during the, sometimes, long stretches of time that it sits on a shelf. The reason for using an alcohol-based flavor is to avoid having to use heat to re-dry the leaf a second time. By using this type of dressing, the flavor element can be applied, and the moisture will naturally “flash” off in about 24 hours leaving the tobacco at a more normal humidity level.
That brings us to another topic- the difference between taste and flavor. Taste comes from the sensations received by the taste buds in reaction to whatever comes in contact with them, and are generally broken down into salty, sweet, sour, bitter and umami. But taste, in and of itself, is a fairly muted sense. When it’s combined with the sense of smell (aroma), it becomes what we call flavor. To understand this, just think about what food tastes like when you have a head cold. That’s why aroma is an important part of pipe tobacco.
To see the effect, let’s look at a tobacco like Lane’s 1-Q. It’s amazingly popular, and has a very pleasant aroma, but the flavor isn’t overly sweet and is fairly mellow because the basic taste of the tobaccos is mild, plus, the aroma isn’t too pronounced. Indeed, it would be difficult for most people to identify the flavoring used by the taste, but can definitely detect vanilla in the aroma. Contrast that to Cornell & Diehl’s Autumn Evening. The maple/vanilla flavors are very compatible with the base red Virginia tobacco flavor, and the aroma is so noticeable, that this is one of the rare aromatics in which the added flavor is readily noticeable to the taste.
To move in a different direction, Virginias, with their natural sugar content, can make the smoker often think that they’ve been topped, even when no dressing has been applied. This is especially true in well-aged tins, which become noticeably sweeter. I smoked a ten year-old tin of McClelland’s Christmas Cheer that had become so sweet that the flavor reminded me of English toffee rather than tobacco.
The last point regards heavily topped blends that have a strong aroma, but a very light flavor. This is a common topic among people who are disappointed with an aromatic that fills the room with a singular scent, but doesn’t appear to translate to taste. Our olfactory sense quickly becomes accustomed to aromas (why do guests smell your dog when you don’t?), but our taste takes much longer to tail off. So, a blend will have a definite hint of flavor at first, but it fades fairly soon.
That makes people wonder why a flavored cigar will have a very noticeable flavor that lasts through the entire smoke, when the same isn’t true of a pipe tobacco. The reason is simple- in a flavored cigar, the dressing is applied to the wrapper leaf, so one’s tongue is in direct contact with the flavoring agent the entire time, but the taste buds never come in direct contact with the leaf with a pipe.>>
Comments
Try some Sutliff Vanilla Custard....very, very Vanilla. Are Watkins flavorings used to blend tobacco? I am of the opinion that you are not supposed to add food grade spices such as cinnamon, nutmeg, etc. I remember doing some research on the net and i kept running into this recommendation. Now, it could be the big blending houses don't want us screwing around and taking business away? Just for safety sake, do the research. Based on what I remember reading the flavors that are used commercially are not the same as food grade? Let me know what you find out.
An aromatic tobacco has two sources of flavor...the tobaccos and the added flavorings/casings. We obviously taste the tobacco immediately from the lit portion. But where in a cross section of a lit bowl do we obtain the added flavor? Is it right from the flame or do we derive most of the taste from the heated and steamed tobacco just below the flame? (And if so, is that why so many tobaccos lose their flavor toward the end of the bowl?)
The reason this discussion brings that up in my mind is that while I might love the taste and aroma of cocoa, for example, I don't think I'd find burning cocoa very palatable. Or a burning egg custard pie. So I'm wondering if the commercially added flavors might differ from what's on the shelf at the grocery store due to their ability to convey flavor through heating but not burning. I.e., grabbing some pure cinnamon off the shelf might only let you know what burnt cinnamon tastes like.
Well hell. That doesn't read very well, but maybe the drift got across. And maybe @Leonard could, without spilling any trade secrets, let us know something?
https://www.tobacconistuniversity.org/curriculum_tobacco_college_pipe_blending1.php
There you go Mike......the Ghost knows, I may have to try this myself
Casing- Casings are flavorings, sometimes using an alcohol base, that are added early in the processing. Casings are primarily used to add flavor to a blend.
Top Dressing- Top Dressings are added toward the end of processing, and their main purpose is to enhance room note, or aroma.
<<Flavoring tobacco is a polarizing subject, to say the least. Nothing will stir up snide remarks more than to bring up the subject of aromatics at a gathering of pipesters. But flavorings are much more common than many people think, and they serve a vital purpose. So let’s look at how flavors are used, how they’re added and some discussion of how they impact a blend.
It almost seems to be a badge of honor to claim not to smoke flavored blends at all; sort of like saying that one doesn’t watch TV. The truth of the matter is that very few tobaccos have no flavoring at all. Each variety of tobacco has its’ negative properties, and the right flavoring can mitigate those, to some degree. A good example is the use of Burley. This tobacco can be somewhat sour, and the amount varies depending upon the strain, where it’s grown and other factors. Also, Burley can produce a more alkaline smoke, which can lead to tongue bite. The judicious use of a sweetener will serve the purpose of addressing both problems. In this case, something like licorice or molasses will do the job.
At this point, let’s look at the two types of flavorings- casings and top dressings. Casings are applied at the earlier stages, and are often steamed into the leaf. The steam helps to open the pores and carry the added flavor into the tobacco. Virginias and Burleys are almost universally cased. Because of the process used, casings are usually water-based. After the tobacco is cased, the tobacco is dried, often by putting the leaf on a conveyor which passes through a heated chamber, reducing the overall moisture content of the tobacco to a more manageable level. The flavor of the blend is more affected by the casing than the top dressing because it penetrates the leaf.
Once the mixture is dried sufficiently, top dressings are often added. This is especially true if an aromatic quality is desired. The choice of top dressings is dictated by the desired aroma. That part of the process is obvious, but how to achieve it is a bit more esoteric. To get a cherry aroma, use a cherry dressing. Seems pretty simple, doesn’t it? But when making the choice, the natural aroma of the leaf, plus whatever the casing adds has to be taken into consideration. As an example, Virginias often exhibit a hay-like aroma. If that isn’t taken into account, the end product might wind up smelling far different than was hoped for. So, oftentimes, it may take a number of different formulations before the aroma is acceptable.
Often, an additional element needs to be added to the basic flavor to achieve the desired result. When I was working on a chocolate aromatic, I found that, as in baking, a chocolate scent can’t be properly done without some vanilla.
Top dressings usually have an alcohol base, and may contain another "carrier", used to carry the flavor to the tobacco. In the case of "over-the-counter" blends, propylene glycol may be used as the carrier, as it also acts as a humectant to keep the tobacco moist during the, sometimes, long stretches of time that it sits on a shelf. The reason for using an alcohol-based flavor is to avoid having to use heat to re-dry the leaf a second time. By using this type of dressing, the flavor element can be applied, and the moisture will naturally “flash” off in about 24 hours leaving the tobacco at a more normal humidity level.
That brings us to another topic- the difference between taste and flavor. Taste comes from the sensations received by the taste buds in reaction to whatever comes in contact with them, and are generally broken down into salty, sweet, sour, bitter and umami. But taste, in and of itself, is a fairly muted sense. When it’s combined with the sense of smell (aroma), it becomes what we call flavor. To understand this, just think about what food tastes like when you have a head cold. That’s why aroma is an important part of pipe tobacco.
To see the effect, let’s look at a tobacco like Lane’s 1-Q. It’s amazingly popular, and has a very pleasant aroma, but the flavor isn’t overly sweet and is fairly mellow because the basic taste of the tobaccos is mild, plus, the aroma isn’t too pronounced. Indeed, it would be difficult for most people to identify the flavoring used by the taste, but can definitely detect vanilla in the aroma. Contrast that to Cornell & Diehl’s Autumn Evening. The maple/vanilla flavors are very compatible with the base red Virginia tobacco flavor, and the aroma is so noticeable, that this is one of the rare aromatics in which the added flavor is readily noticeable to the taste.
To move in a different direction, Virginias, with their natural sugar content, can make the smoker often think that they’ve been topped, even when no dressing has been applied. This is especially true in well-aged tins, which become noticeably sweeter. I smoked a ten year-old tin of McClelland’s Christmas Cheer that had become so sweet that the flavor reminded me of English toffee rather than tobacco.
The last point regards heavily topped blends that have a strong aroma, but a very light flavor. This is a common topic among people who are disappointed with an aromatic that fills the room with a singular scent, but doesn’t appear to translate to taste. Our olfactory sense quickly becomes accustomed to aromas (why do guests smell your dog when you don’t?), but our taste takes much longer to tail off. So, a blend will have a definite hint of flavor at first, but it fades fairly soon.
That makes people wonder why a flavored cigar will have a very noticeable flavor that lasts through the entire smoke, when the same isn’t true of a pipe tobacco. The reason is simple- in a flavored cigar, the dressing is applied to the wrapper leaf, so one’s tongue is in direct contact with the flavoring agent the entire time, but the taste buds never come in direct contact with the leaf with a pipe.>>
From a step-by-step process, most factories will moisten the dry leaf (via steam), then case the tobacco (heat is involved here as well), then dry, cut and potentially dry again.
Top flavor (vanilla, cherry, etc.) is typically added in the very last step.
After smoking that first tin, I came to the conclusion that this is a terrible blend that none of you should every put into a pipe and smoke. I am always ready to take the risk to save others so if you have any Jolly Old St. Nicholas, ship it to me immediately and I will dispose of it by burning it in a device specifically crafted for burning.
You don't even have to pay me for this service. Just pay the shipping cost.
Seriously, that last paragraph was a joke. C&D Jolly Old St. Nicholas is one of the better Christmas Blends ever made in my opinion. I know a lot of pipe smokers who swear McClelland's Christmas Cheer was their "go-to" Christmas Blend, but Christmas Cheer was a straight Virginia blend. I am not on straight Virginias anyway and definitely can't understand how burning grass/hay relates to Christmas.
I've always preferred aromatic Christmas Blend and Jolly Old St. Nick is one that isn't overly goopy, it isn't overly sweet, it burns well out of the tin (for me anyway) and it doesn't bite. Since my other favorite Christmas or Holiday blends are made by companies like Rattray's, Peterson, Kohlhase & Kopp that were not released in the U.S. this year and apparently will not be available in the future, I bought a total of 5 tins of Jolly Old St. Nicholas for future enjoyment.
It's a fantastic VaPer/Aromatic hybrid that , I think, both English and aromatic smokers will enjoy!!!!
As already stated, thanks @PappyJoe for turning us on to this unique blend...
<giggle>