In my senior years I have recognized the difference between religion and faith. Although a practicing Roman Catholic since birth still attending Mass every Sunday and praying every day, I recognize that religion is "man made" as opposed to faith which is a a gift from God. My religion often confuses me even after all these years. My faith however only grows stronger.
I believe that in a general sense religion very often confuses those who have true faith. Religion is man made whereas faith is a gift from God.
<< Impressive, but which denomination? I apologize for not being more clear when I asked of which do you refer, I did not intend to mean physically in the literal sense.>>
No worries. I was being purposely evasive. Let me tell you why.....
My local F&AM Lodge requires the Brethren to profess a belief in God, the Supreme Architect of the Universe, but forbids the discussion of religion in the Lodge. My experience as a monitor (censor) at the old PCLink, AOL, NJ.com, and three ministerial groups, has taught me the wisdom of this policy.
Early in my tenure at my last pulpit I was exposed to our community's THREE ministerial associations that, genberally did not interact. One was the Evangelical Ministerial Association, another was the association of Roman Catholic Priests (they had a name, but I don't remember what it was; in any event, the community was overwhelmingly Catholic), and the third, the Interfaith Clergy, was made up of some of the more liberal RC Priests, Mainstream Protestants, and a few others (non-Protestants (?!?!), including LDS ministers -- Mormons? -- one Imam and two Jews. There was also a small association of Black pastors, most of whom were also affiliated with the Interfaith Clergy group. When the local hospital set out to refurbish and rededicate the small hospital chapel, a meeting was called, to be held at the hospital, involving all three Ministerial Associations. I got to hear ordained clergy say the following things around the big table:
"Ordinarily, I won't sit at a table with the un-churched, but this is important." (an Evangelical minister) "My friend, Rabbi ______, is one of the finest little Jew people in town. (an Episcopal priest responding to the above Evangelical minister) "It troubles me that we have to deal with so many Papists, but this is important." (a Baptist minister) "Why do you Catholics have so many idols in your sanctuaries?" (the same Baptist minister) There were other outrageous statements, but you get the idea......
After much arguing, a majority vote had a stained glass window of a tree ("The Tree of Life" one minister called it) positioned behind the podium, rather than the pastoral scene of Jesus with animals and children that the Evangelicals and some of the RC Priests wanted.
I was horrified by the behavior of my clergy "colleagues," especially in front of the community lay leaders that made up much of the hospital's Board of Trustees present at the meeting. I resolved then and there that I would oppose what I thought of as prejudiced circle drawers. (Some circles are drawn to keep people in; others to keep people out.) The following autumn, I ran for President of the Interfaith clergy and won, a position I then held for nearly twenty years. It was my policy to invited members of all the ministerial groups to attend our meetings and activities, and especially the annual Interfaith Thanksgiving Service. I actually had some small successes.
When the public schools came to our Interfaith Clergy for what we called Clergy Show and Tell Day in the high school, I insisted that members from the other clergy associations be included in the several three man teams sent to talk to the high schoolers. We even included one of the crazies, so the kids would have a broad exposure to different faiths and positions. (I'm thinking of the pastor notorious for telling patients he visited to get out of bed, get down on their knees and pray for healing....)
I found my fellow ministers needed to be disabused of some of their deeply ingrained prejudices: RC Priests are all child molesters; Baptists are all hypocritical scolds; Jews were ll money grubbers; LDS pastors were wild eyed fantacists from Kolob, yada yada yada.
Question: What's the worst part about churches? The stained glass windows: no one inside can see out and no one can see inside. We don't know enough -- or oftentimes anything -- about our neighbors' religions.
To conclude, let me tell you a story that has a beginning, but no end. In a nearby community, a beautiful but somewhat rundown church building went up for sale. Me and two of my clergy buddies, one a Priest and one a liberally minded Baptist (not the one quoted above), mused about purchasing the building and opening "The Church of the Cool Guy." Remember, this was more than two decades ago. Our "doctrine" was to be, "It doesn't matter what you are -- Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, Muslim Black or Jew, so long as you were a cool guy -- a decent God-fearing human being. Of course, nothing ever came of it.....
In conclusion: "Have we not all One Father? Hath not One God created us?" Rather that being pre-judged by any of our less broad minded members, I'll say my affiliation is with The Church of the Cool Guy. We judge others not by what they believe or profess, but by their deeds -- by what they do; by the way they behave, particularly towards others.
Obvious clue for those who can't/won't leave it alone: I'm a Mason, so I'm not Roman Catholic.
Merry Christmas, one and all!!!!!! And a happy, healthy, and safe New Year!
An addendum: I have served in three communities where the majority was not us. In one community, most people of faith were Baptist, in another, Lutheran, and the third, Roman Catholic. In retrospect, I preferred living in a community influenced by Roman Catholic mores.
@TaylorJDutton@mezzoduomo Personally, I am of the belief that the First Amendment, which states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." is a good thing. Even though our country was founded on Christian beliefs, I feel the government has no business telling religions what they can and cannot do (within reason - I take a dim view of any religious cult which wants to practice live sacrifice of anything.)
The other side of that coin is that I believe the churches and cults should stay completely out of the government's business and should not be involved in campaigning for one candidate or the other. This is for the simple reason that while God may be infallible, the people running the churches have proven time and again that they are not infallible. That and the perception that I have that there are as many hypocrites and sinners in Church on Sunday as there are outside of the church.
Don't get me wrong. I believe in God. I just don't believe there is any passage in the Bible that says you have to belong to one church or the other.
@mezzoduomo@PappyJoe that was supposed to be a shouldn’t in my original post, no idea how it Came out as should.
Also, pappy, it is clear that the Bible does not support a specific “denomination”, that would be ridiculously. but, i do think that denominations have in a way become necessary, because God’s word does support truth, it is truth. So when a church strays from that, other churches sprout to maintain the legacy of truth that has been sustained throughout time (by gods grace). And sometimes recognizing that straying takes generations.
@motie2 wonderful verse, so much packed in to each of those words.
@Michael308 thankfully god is strong and patient with us when we are weak and turning to our own thoughts instead of his. recognizing our weakness is good, it points us back to Christ again and again, (thankfully all the while, he never lets go of us) that being said, we shouldn’t pursue weak faith purposely and presume upon gods patience. I’m right there with you man, not as much with the life experience, yet, but more so with your first point.
We have found a wonderful “chapel’, all very devote Christians, one is a Doctor of Divinity,, others are such Bible Scholars, it blows me away,,, and all are nice people. When In Ft Worth recently we saw a “chapel’ that was huge,, Wife and I have looked for years, and this is what we have wanted.
There you go! If people would just be understanding, knowing that a new person to your church doesn't know your particular religion, you shouldn't A) make fun of them for knowing what they don't know, but rather welcome people into the folds of grace and Actually follow what the Word says and have compassion for others. That's what I understood the Word to mean anyway. But there are people outside of this group who are less than understanding. You folks have restored some of my faith in humanity that there are still reasonable and genuinely nice people out there. Is it a coincidence that a pipe forum is where I found such rational people? I'd like to chalk this one up to Einstein saying "I believe that pipe smoking contributes to a somewhat calm and objective judgment in all human affairs". It seems to be quite true here. Hope you guys had a great Christmas and a Happy New Year; excuse the late replies, I have been unwell and lacking any motivation or energy to post.
I am an old guy now. And I will give you and everyone the advantage of knowing what I have found:
Some of the nicest people that I have EVER met were those I served with in the Military, and of course at church. Others include those I have met at Tobacco Shops(Cigar and Pipe Shops) and at Gun Ranges. And to be fair, I have also met some real A holes at those venues but they were few and far between.
My guess is when a group of like minded people with common interests get together, there is a common bond, similar opinions, and a trust of each other (especially at the range).
Having said that, I have checked out other pipe blogs, forums, and sites and found them to be very closed minded, obtuse, and unfriendly. I have made some very good friends on this site that even though I have not shaken their hands, consider them as real friends. Welcome....
@pwkarch My local tobacco shop has a select group that meet there that are pretty closed minded, but I suspect there's another reason as to why that particular group is a bunch of certifiable cercopithecus. On top of my suspicions, they also don't smoke pipes but are emphatically cigar aficionados and pipes aren't "as good" as cigars. The friends I made in the military are about the ONLY reason I go onto facebook, we went through allot, there and back again so to speak. I haven't had the same experience as you with church, it seems that the best church goers I have met are outside of a church. In any case, there will always be people who are a-holes in retrospect, there may be only two kinds of people in this world, a-holes and non-a-holes; people who try to be civil and get along despite differences of opinion, though they may not agree they can still be polite, and then there are those who don't.
It's not what ever religion you practice/follow/adhere to, or "none of the above." All that matters is that you are a decent human being. What happens in the world to come is in the hands of a pretty good administrator, and will take care of itself.
of course, that's just my opinion.... I could be wrong.
@DerekJ - I met a large number of certifiable anal orifices during my 21-years of service in the Coast Guard. With exception of only a handful, they were also the people I wanted around when the feces was falling around us.
The handful I didn't want to be around were usually those who 1. Shouldn't have been in the Coast Guard anyway. 2. Thought they were better and smarter than everyone else (they weren't). 3. Were convinced that the best way to advance was applying their proboscis to the anal orifices of those senior to them.
@PappyJoe No offense meant, just a little funning you there. I joined the Chair Force, myself. Loved your #3 reason! Spot on and an eloquent depiction of those people!
Obviously you were a puddle pirate. Reality is, I could've gone to the Coast Guard but I love flying, and I think most people join the branch that appeals to them the most. I like to think my job was important, I mean we did allot of combat offloads to Soldiers and Marines in need of bean and bullets. Brought them back too, some came back with me to Dover AFB, some were able to walk home.
Guys, we all did our jobs in the branches that we chose. We are allowed to bust each others *$@&s as it is tradition. But no one who is not in the fraternity better never put any branch down.
@pwkarch Dang right! Brothers in arms, we can squabble all we want amongst ourselves, that's what brothers do, but no one else had better pick on our brothers.
@motie2 & @DerekJ - It's always been in good fun. Except that one time when I was in a bar in Seattle and I left with a girl a Marine was trying to pick up. He was a little angry.
Comments
I believe that in a general sense religion very often confuses those who have true faith. Religion is man made whereas faith is a gift from God.
Just my $0.02..........
<< Impressive, but which denomination? I apologize for not being more clear when I asked of which do you refer, I did not intend to mean physically in the literal sense.>>
No worries. I was being purposely evasive. Let me tell you why.....
My local F&AM Lodge requires the Brethren to profess a belief in God, the Supreme Architect of the Universe, but forbids the discussion of religion in the Lodge. My experience as a monitor (censor) at the old PCLink, AOL, NJ.com, and three ministerial groups, has taught me the wisdom of this policy.
Early in my tenure at my last pulpit I was exposed to our community's THREE ministerial associations that, genberally did not interact. One was the Evangelical Ministerial Association, another was the association of Roman Catholic Priests (they had a name, but I don't remember what it was; in any event, the community was overwhelmingly Catholic), and the third, the Interfaith Clergy, was made up of some of the more liberal RC Priests, Mainstream Protestants, and a few others (non-Protestants (?!?!), including LDS ministers -- Mormons? -- one Imam and two Jews. There was also a small association of Black pastors, most of whom were also affiliated with the Interfaith Clergy group. When the local hospital set out to refurbish and rededicate the small hospital chapel, a meeting was called, to be held at the hospital, involving all three Ministerial Associations. I got to hear ordained clergy say the following things around the big table:
"Ordinarily, I won't sit at a table with the un-churched, but this is important." (an Evangelical minister)
"My friend, Rabbi ______, is one of the finest little Jew people in town. (an Episcopal priest responding to the above Evangelical minister)
"It troubles me that we have to deal with so many Papists, but this is important." (a Baptist minister)
"Why do you Catholics have so many idols in your sanctuaries?" (the same Baptist minister)
There were other outrageous statements, but you get the idea......
After much arguing, a majority vote had a stained glass window of a tree ("The Tree of Life" one minister called it) positioned behind the podium, rather than the pastoral scene of Jesus with animals and children that the Evangelicals and some of the RC Priests wanted.
I was horrified by the behavior of my clergy "colleagues," especially in front of the community lay leaders that made up much of the hospital's Board of Trustees present at the meeting. I resolved then and there that I would oppose what I thought of as prejudiced circle drawers. (Some circles are drawn to keep people in; others to keep people out.) The following autumn, I ran for President of the Interfaith clergy and won, a position I then held for nearly twenty years. It was my policy to invited members of all the ministerial groups to attend our meetings and activities, and especially the annual Interfaith Thanksgiving Service. I actually had some small successes.
When the public schools came to our Interfaith Clergy for what we called Clergy Show and Tell Day in the high school, I insisted that members from the other clergy associations be included in the several three man teams sent to talk to the high schoolers. We even included one of the crazies, so the kids would have a broad exposure to different faiths and positions. (I'm thinking of the pastor notorious for telling patients he visited to get out of bed, get down on their knees and pray for healing....)
I found my fellow ministers needed to be disabused of some of their deeply ingrained prejudices: RC Priests are all child molesters; Baptists are all hypocritical scolds; Jews were ll money grubbers; LDS pastors were wild eyed fantacists from Kolob, yada yada yada.
Question: What's the worst part about churches? The stained glass windows: no one inside can see out and no one can see inside. We don't know enough -- or oftentimes anything -- about our neighbors' religions.
To conclude, let me tell you a story that has a beginning, but no end. In a nearby community, a beautiful but somewhat rundown church building went up for sale. Me and two of my clergy buddies, one a Priest and one a liberally minded Baptist (not the one quoted above), mused about purchasing the building and opening "The Church of the Cool Guy." Remember, this was more than two decades ago. Our "doctrine" was to be, "It doesn't matter what you are -- Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, Muslim Black or Jew, so long as you were a cool guy -- a decent God-fearing human being. Of course, nothing ever came of it.....
In conclusion: "Have we not all One Father? Hath not One God created us?" Rather that being pre-judged by any of our less broad minded members, I'll say my affiliation is with The Church of the Cool Guy. We judge others not by what they believe or profess, but by their deeds -- by what they do; by the way they behave, particularly towards others.
Obvious clue for those who can't/won't leave it alone: I'm a Mason, so I'm not Roman Catholic.
Merry Christmas, one and all!!!!!! And a happy, healthy, and safe New Year!
Just sayin' ...
Personally, I am of the belief that the First Amendment, which states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." is a good thing. Even though our country was founded on Christian beliefs, I feel the government has no business telling religions what they can and cannot do (within reason - I take a dim view of any religious cult which wants to practice live sacrifice of anything.)
The other side of that coin is that I believe the churches and cults should stay completely out of the government's business and should not be involved in campaigning for one candidate or the other. This is for the simple reason that while God may be infallible, the people running the churches have proven time and again that they are not infallible. That and the perception that I have that there are as many hypocrites and sinners in Church on Sunday as there are outside of the church.
Don't get me wrong. I believe in God. I just don't believe there is any passage in the Bible that says you have to belong to one church or the other.
Also, pappy, it is clear that the Bible does not support a specific “denomination”, that would be ridiculously. but, i do think that denominations have in a way become necessary, because God’s word does support truth, it is truth. So when a church strays from that, other churches sprout to maintain the legacy of truth that has been sustained throughout time (by gods grace). And sometimes recognizing that straying takes generations.
@motie2 wonderful verse, so much packed in to each of those words.
When In Ft Worth recently we saw a “chapel’ that was huge,,
Wife and I have looked for years, and this is what we have wanted.
I didn't die in 1998. But I've observed that a D.D. degree and a couple of bucks will get you a nice coffee at Starbucks.
@Michael308
@thebadgerpiper
@motie2
There you go! If people would just be understanding, knowing that a new person to your church doesn't know your particular religion, you shouldn't A) make fun of them for knowing what they don't know, but rather welcome people into the folds of grace and
I am an old guy now. And I will give you and everyone the advantage of knowing what I have found:
Some of the nicest people that I have EVER met were those I served with in the Military, and of course at church. Others include those I have met at Tobacco Shops(Cigar and Pipe Shops) and at Gun Ranges. And to be fair, I have also met some real A holes at those venues but they were few and far between.
My guess is when a group of like minded people with common interests get together, there is a common bond, similar opinions, and a trust of each other (especially at the range).
Having said that, I have checked out other pipe blogs, forums, and sites and found them to be very closed minded, obtuse, and unfriendly. I have made some very good friends on this site that even though I have not shaken their hands, consider them as real friends. Welcome....
My local tobacco shop has a select group that meet there that are pretty closed minded, but I suspect there's another reason as to why that particular group is a bunch of certifiable cercopithecus. On top of my suspicions, they also don't smoke pipes but are emphatically cigar aficionados and pipes aren't "as good" as cigars. The friends I made in the military are about the ONLY reason I go onto facebook, we went through allot, there and back again so to speak. I haven't had the same experience as you with church, it seems that the best church goers I have met are outside of a church. In any case, there will always be people who are a-holes in retrospect, there may be only two kinds of people in this world, a-holes and non-a-holes; people who try to be civil and get along despite differences of opinion, though they may not agree they can still be polite, and then there are those who don't.
It's not what ever religion you practice/follow/adhere to, or "none of the above." All that matters is that you are a decent human being. What happens in the world to come is in the hands of a pretty good administrator, and will take care of itself.
of course, that's just my opinion.... I could be wrong.
Nah....you are "right as rain" (I am not sure where that saying came from?)
The handful I didn't want to be around were usually those who 1. Shouldn't have been in the Coast Guard anyway. 2. Thought they were better and smarter than everyone else (they weren't). 3. Were convinced that the best way to advance was applying their proboscis to the anal orifices of those senior to them.
Well if they were better and smarter, they wouldn't have joined the Coast Guard. Haha
No offense meant, just a little funning you there. I joined the Chair Force, myself. Loved your #3 reason! Spot on and an eloquent depiction of those people!
Obviously you were a puddle pirate. Reality is, I could've gone to the Coast Guard but I love flying, and I think most people join the branch that appeals to them the most. I like to think my job was important, I mean we did allot of combat offloads to Soldiers and Marines in need of bean and bullets. Brought them back too, some came back with me to Dover AFB, some were able to walk home.
Dang right! Brothers in arms, we can squabble all we want amongst ourselves, that's what brothers do, but no one else had better pick on our brothers.
air farce
chair force
puddle pirate
Great stuff! (All due respect.......)
You forgot:
Ground Pounder
Squidly
Jarhead
Airdale
There are many others and all used in jest between service members.