Laws: how to find loop holes....

Wolf41035

Government (federal) State Government, Local Laws and so on.  How do you find loop holes and it is always right to find and use a loop hole?
If it keeps people from having freedom or keeps people from helping other I think YES, if it is to protect people or protect property then maybe not.  When it comes to firearms DO NOT TOUCH OUR RIGHTS, When it comes to our Tobacco, it should be our choice but when it comes to doing harm to others or others property I like them laws. 
I can go on and on about some of these laws....example: A bunch of snotty people telling you what you can and can't do in or on your own property, some is OK because it helps everyone but some are so CRAZY that they want you to be a freaking robot!  Example: My friend lives in a snob filed subdivision with Housing committees that tell him that he has to take out his trash at a certain time and has to have the empty cans in by a certain time, if he is late he gets a fine and there are no excuses! If he is stuck in traffic or has to work over time...Not an excuse, if he is sick and on the crapper...not an excuse!  I think people like to run peoples live a bit to much these days BUT it is your choice just like his when you move into a location like that and know the rules before you buy the place.....What is different is if you have lived there longer than anyone else and they try to force new rules on you, I like the old Grandfather rule, if you had it, owned it, where there before it then you shouldn't be forced to follow rules you did not make or agree on.  My property, I had it first and you can't come in and make new rules just because you moved here and want everything your way. 
Now before anyone thinks this is about me and I am having this problem, remember these are examples, personally I live on a big farm and will stay on a farm and dare anyone to knock on my door and tell me I have to get my trash can inside no more than 15 minutes after the truck has emptied it!  LOL 
This is really about RULES and which ones are good and which ones are bad and how to find a loop hole to get around them.  Like the Tobacco rules on what is a Tobacco product and what is considered Tobacco and what can and can't be given away for free. 
One shop I knew used to give free stuff away all the time. With the new rule they use a loop hole, the charge you a little change and you get the product, when your done you bring the wrapper or sticker to them for your refund......use to do that with Cigars all the time, it was great!  |
So loop holes are there, you just have to find them and use ones that do no harm to others.

ghostsofpompeii

When-ever you resort to using loopholes you always have to be on your toes because you know you are operating as close to the intent of the law as possible, with one foot slightly over the line. And from a legal aspect you can find yourself tip toeing through a minefield - and it only takes one misstep for things to blow-up in your face. Back before the days of DVDs and Blu-Rays when the only way to get a movie was on VHS tape. Now a movie plays in the theater and three months later it's available on DVD, Blu-Ray or On-Demand TV. But back then theatrical movies were not released with any regularity - and most film completely unavailable ... so video piracy was much more prevalent. I had an acquaintance who was into video pirating and even foolish enough to have an ad in an tabloid style video magazine. He thought he could get away with it by suggesting he was not selling the movies - but trading. Thinking it was some loophole he'd dreamed up. You would give him $50.00 for an ashtray or some off item - then he'd turn around and trade the item you just bought from him for a video tape of a pirated movie. Claiming no money exchanged hands for the purchase of the pirated movie. Well the FBI thought differently and busted his little video duplication business, confiscating all his VCR Recorders, blank tapes, and even store bought copies of movies purchased legally ... as well as a hefty fine. He did well to keep for going to jail. And the whole affair cost him a pretty penny. Only because he thought he had gamed the system with a loophole.       

dbh1950

" Men are born, and always continue, free and equal in respect to their Rights. 

Political Liberty consists in the power of doing whatever does not injure another. "

Thomas Paine from the Rights of Man

In our personal conduct or deportment, the ability of freedom and equality should be tempered with whatever does not injure another. Not wanting to stand on a soap box, not wanting to deviate from the TPL forum, as an adult, I should be free to use products such as tobacco upon my choice as to those things I enjoy, without a government nanny penalizing me for my choices. I understand the risks being an intelligent adult. I also understand that my liberty to do so stops when it might injure another. Paine also speaks of our Duty towards others that we work to ensure that they also have liberty to express their Rights.

I suppose that is one reason outside of personal enjoyment as to why I smoke a pipe, that is also why I support those that choose to do likewise, and support those who serve the pipe smoking community.

Woodsman

A lot of us have video tapes hanging around the house and no working VCR, Technology rolls on faster and faster leaving more and more behind. I got into an argument with a young author when I told him I used the web to get some books. I explained to him that there was no way to find most of the authors of the Golden Age of Sci-Fi (40's and 50's) in print anywhere but there were the old stories only on the web. That placated him.

The Cable companies are loosing customers at a steady rate and some people are managing to stream movies that haven't been released yet. Most of the rental companies have gone under and the libraries in the towns around me have massive amounts of DVD's and Blue Rays and a lot less books.

Time is fleeting.

judandhispipe

 "When-ever you resort to using loopholes you always have to be on your
toes because you know you are operating as close to the intent of the
law as possible, with one foot slightly over the line. And from a legal
aspect you can find yourself tip toeing through a minefield - and it
only takes one misstep for things to blow-up in your face."
Bingo.
Sometimes,too,you can get into things where it's not the government, but a private party. That's the case in the trashcan situation mentioned in the OP. The intent,of course,is to keep people from leaving their trash cans at the curb for extended periods of time.
Living in society, all of us need to be flexible,and respect each other. That's what makes society work.

Philip

What makes society work is a civil, morale  people who have respect for each other and an underlying respect for the law, not the force of government. If that were the case North Korea would be paradise. 

Loopholes should be in the other direction. A free person should not have to tip toe around and try to figure out how to avoid the 10 billion rules he doesn't even know exist. If the government is going to come down on you let them prove it outweighs your liberty. 

Sorry.

Wolf41035

LOL Wow I did not expect all the different posts about this subject, it had nothing to do with anything but it did. it was really about our rights as pipe smokers and our rights as human beings in America.  As for the loopholes the only good one are the ones a lawyer will back you on and then be careful because we know how crooked they can be.  If I use a loophole I get two lawyers opinions and ask both of them to put it in writing so I can or could prove I was misled if I actually do something wrong.  Yes it is a fine line so don't do it unless you have to.  lol
Yes it is nice for people to take in their cans and everyone should but to make them do it at set times and fine them if they are a few minutes late is just wrong, that is getting extreme and mainly comes from snotty, stuck up, nose in the air people that want to control everyone around them and they usually don't have much of a social life other than drinking parties with their other snotty friends.  lol

ghostsofpompeii

@Wolf41035 I'd have a hard time living in one of those gated communities with laws that are so strict that you're penalized for being a few minutes late for anything ... be it when to have your trash cans set out in the front for pick-up or the time allowed for a guests to enter the main guard gate. Some gated communities have rules against or restricting overnight guest. And condos and apartment complexes have set rules about pipe smoking on the balcony or terrace - yet don't object to the smoke emanating from an outdoor barbecue grill. I can see why people move out to the country where they buy up several acres of land and put their house right in the middle.

Remember what Captain Nemo said in the movie "Mysterious Island" when asked why he didn't make his presence known sooner to the castaways, and waited till the volcano was on the verge of eruption before making his appearance ... "Contact with my species has always disappointed me."  

daveinlax

Not wanting to stand on a soap box, not wanting to deviate from the TPL
forum, as an adult, I should be free to use products such as tobacco
upon my choice as to those things I enjoy, without a government nanny
penalizing me for my choices.

LoL! What's stopping you? If you own a single family home or non leased car light nobody but your insurance provider will say a word if you want to smoke four packs a day. Most of the time these guys will whine because their wives restrict them from smoking in the two places they have control over. Like public drinking, smoking(butts)/chewing(spitting) in public places not popular and never will be again.

As for the HOA's I own and live in two homes in non gated HOA neighborhoods The rules are written strict for the guy who doesn't get it but most people do and everything works out just fine. When I drive through other city neighborhoods in my area and see the wild paint jobs and other blight that is not cracked down on by city zoning.
I have a friend who lives next to a couple that gardens in the front yard parks their cars trucks and other toys in the back and the garage in a party bar on the weekends. When the city cracked down on them for parking on their lawn the covered it in gravel to make code. This is a nice middle class place the one couple has probably lowed the value of by thousands of dollar times say twenty homes just to live the way they want.

motie2

If you are concerned about headlines like this: <<The FDA is extending the meaning of the Tobacco Control Act to cover cigars, pipe tobacco, and even pipes.>> and all the rumors about "Deeming Regulations," along with the announcement that Dunhill was abandoning all pipe tobacco related business, then here's a organization and a website that might interest you.

The International Premium Cigar & Pipe Retailers Association -- http://www.ipcprlegislative.org/

Meanwhile, I read     http://www.ipcprlegislative.org/ipcpr-and-cra-release-on-todays-fda-announcement/     and don't understand how it affects us....

Anyone?

daveinlax

I'm a charter CRA Member and we've been working at getting an exemption from the regulations for premium hand rolled cigars. I don't think it will have any affect traditional pipe tobacco at all. Unfortunately most pipe tobacco sold is relabeled (tax loophole) RYO cigarette tobacco and is represented by NATO not IPCPR. 
I think BAT discontinuing Dunhill pipe tobacco and cigars was about their buying Reynolds and not the FDA.      

mseddon

As a Christian pastor, I have one perspective on this. Namely that I think we are created to be interconnected and the world is interconnected. We Christians worship, after all, a God who is Triune; a God whose very being is community. I am becoming more and more dubious about claims of our inate independence. Nonetheless, that's a faith belief I have that shouldn't be a foundation of public policy. There are, however, secular arguments for our innate interdependence as well.

I also have a perspective from my previous life. I worked for a while as the Deputy State Historic Preservation Officer for Utah. A big chunk of my job was ensuring that federal and state agencies were complying with the National Historic Preservation Act, which stipulates, essentially, that our own government won't destroy the physical remnants our own history without at least talking to those affected and going through a process of consideration. I dealt with a lot of people who came to me with complaints that essentially boiled down to "but following this law is difficult for me and I just don't want to do it." My response was, well in that case work to change the law, but no, you don't get to not follow it just because it is a hassle.

So that's where I am. Our laws are an imperfect mechanism to try and ensure that our collective life is life giving for everybody. Although it is time consuming and hard to change a law or a regulation, I think following it is the best course until it is changed.

This of course is assuming the laws are fundamentally just. Not all laws are or have been, witness the civil rights movement. There is a place for non-violent civil disobedience to confront unjust laws. However, true non-violent disobedience is not quietly disobeying the law hoping you won't get caught, but very publicly and visibly disobeying the law and demanding that you be prosecuted for it to demonstrate the injustice of the law. 

motie2

So may it be His will.

Winton

My wife has a different perspective. She has had severe asthma for most of her life. When she was a girl, restaurants would have smoking on the one side of the building and non-smoking on the other side. This did not solve her breathing problem. 

My household of four, now has two pipe smokers and two who are asmatic / allergic to smoke. Our solution is that my son and I only smoke outside or at our pipe club. Once we come in, immediately get in shower and clothes in washing machine. 

Friday night, I was enjoying a pipe in the garage. My wife came out and said our daughter was having trouble breathing. (She had been sick for several days.) The two of them went to the ER then. I followed after I had a shower. 

Most rules / laws are written to resolve a real problem. It is possible that the problem no longer exists, or was not as bad as someone initially thought. The policies at work are super overkill. But we are told that the people auditing us, know nothing of our industry. "Assume the auditor has a 6th grade education". 

PappyJoe

@Winton is correct. Most rules/laws are written to resolve a real (or perceived) problem. Unfortunately, by the time our elected officials get through "crafting" the law or regulations it becomes more like using a sledgehammer to kill a gnat. Then the elected officials say they will go back and fix it but all they do is make it worse. 

I see the anti-smoking campaign, laws and regulations as the same as those which historically lead to Prohibition in the early 20th Century. Look where that got the United States - increase in organized crime and numerous deaths from the organized crime and the illegal booze. Just saw a fascinating documentary about over 80 deaths in New York City because of illegal booze being made with grain alcohol which had been intentionally spiked with wood alcohol by the government.